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Israeli Elections 2013: Tell Me Who You Vote For and I’ll Tell You Who You Are

Submitted by on February 14, 2013 – 7:42 pm 75 Comments |  
When I first moved to Israel from the Soviet Union at the end of 1990, one of the things I was most excited about is an opportunity to vote in real elections, ones featuring more than one candidate. Wanting to be a responsible citizen, I began to educate myself about the various parties, their platforms, ideologies, and personalities. But to my astonishment, our family friends—well-educated lawyers from a rich Jerusalem neighborhood—told me not to bother. Vote for Meretz, they said, you are an educated secular Ashkenazi Jew after all, aren’t you? At the time, I thought these people were just trying to “sell” me a new party that they themselves supported. But there is a deeper truth here. Although Wikipedia classifies the numerous political parties in Israel according to their ideologies (as it does with political parties elsewhere), a more accurate description of an Israeli political party would emphasize the segment of the Israeli society that it represents. This point is underscored by the existence of such parties as the Dor Party, which represents the older citizens, the Holocaust Survivors Party, Lev LaOlim Party, aimed at immigrants from Central Asia and the Caucasus, and the Yisrael BaAliyah Party, formed to represent the interests of Russian immigrants (the latter party eventually merged with the Likud). Given these strong demographic ties, it is not surprising that clear geographical patterns emerged from the national election of January 2013; as we shall see below, these patterns are largely persistent over time. (The maps of election results below are reproduced from ElectoralGeography.com website.)

Likud_Beiteinu

The Likud-Beiteinu block, headed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, garnered the most seats in the 2013 election—though fewer than expected. It received strongest support in the Ashkelon sub-district, which borders the Gaza strip. The residents of this sub-district suffered particularly intensely from rocket and mortar fire from Gaza in November 2012. Their vote for the Likud-Beiteinu block appears to be a sign of support for the government’s Operation Pillar of Defense, which was designed to halt the rocket attacks. The neighboring Beersheva sub-district, whose northwestern part was also heavily targeted by the rockets, gave over 20% of its vote to the Likud-Beiteinu block, although, as we shall see below, other parties received substantial shares of the vote there as well. A heavy proportion of immigrants from the former Soviet Union—many of whom lean right-wing in Israel—in the Ashkelon sub-district (especially in  Kiryat Gat, Kiryat Malachi, and Ashdod), further contributed to the high Likud-Beiteinu vote there. Perhaps more surprisingly, Haifa on the north coast and parts of the Galilee in the northeast also voted heavily for this party, giving it more than a fifth of their votes. Likud-Beiteinu was least successful, however, in other parts of the north, where Arabs and Druze for a significant proportion of the population; as we shall see below, these areas divided their votes mostly between the three Arab parties.

The surprising second-place showing in the 2013 election went to the new Yesh Atid Party (whose name literally means ‘There is a future’), headed by the charismatic former TV-personality Yair Lapid. His father, Tommy Lapid was a veteran politician and a leader of the left-wing, secular-liberal Shinui party between 1999 and 2006. The platform of Yesh Atid, however, is more centrist, based on a socio-economic agenda. While many members on the Yesh Atid party list lean far left on social issues and on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is not appropriate to characterize this party as “left-wing”. Some American journalist and bloggers compared Yesh Atid to the U.S. Democratic Party and Yair Lapid to President Obama, noting that both politicians appealed to younger voters via social-networking media. However, parallelism between the U.S. Democratic Party and Yesh Atid is challenged by such unexpected personalities on the latter party’s list as the 41-year old Rabbi Dov Lipman, a recent immigrant from the U.S., where he was a staunch Republican. (Lipman is the first American-born member of Israel’s Knesset since the controversial Meir Kahane.) Though an ultra-Orthodox (so-called “Haredi”) rabbi, Lipman joined the party calling for mandatory military service for the Haredi because he believes that “there’s no contradiction between working, serving the country and being Haredi, and he wants to bring that ethic to Israel”, according to an article by JTA’s Ben Sales. However, the majority of Israel’s Haredi population—few of whom serve in the military and many of whom are unemployed and avowedly non-Zionist—are not convinced by his arguments.

Yesh_Atid

The heaviest support for Yesh Atid came from the Central and Tel-Aviv districts, as well as from Haifa and the Golan Heights. A large proportion of Israel’s non-religious middle-class population resides in these areas. This segment of the population is particularly concerned with the socio-economic issues that brought about the “cottage cheese protests” in the summer of 2011; the high prices of Israeli-made dairy products, including cottage cheese, became emblematic of these wider socio-economic issues, though skyrocketing housing prices are a much bigger issue. Another core item on the socio-economic agenda is the special provisions granted to the rapidly growing Haredi population. Public debate over  the Tal Law, which allows the so-called ultra-Orthodox to indefinitely defer national service, nearly led to an early election in 2012, an outcome aborted at the last moment after the Kadima party briefly joined the government. Many secular Israelis are also irritated by the fact that many Haredi men are un- or underemployed, devoting themselves to religious study. As a result, the group is seen by many other Israelis as not paying their “fair share of taxes”. Another focal issue for many secular Israelis is the marriage law, which allows only religious marriages to be conducted within Israel. (All marriages conducted abroad are in principle recognized in Israel, though it remains to be seen whether the first-ever gay couple legally married in New York will be recognized as such.)  For Israeli Jews, the only options are religious, Orthodox weddings or marrying abroad. The situation is even worse for interfaith couples and people who are not recognized as Jewish by Orthodox rabbinical courts (example here include those with Jewish ancestry on the paternal side only and those who converted abroad through a Conservative or Reform ritual)—such couples can only marry abroad. Likewise, only Orthodox divorces and conversions are recognized. People not recognized as Jewish cannot be buried in Jewish cemeteries, including military facilities for fallen soldiers. From time to time, specific cases of perceived injustices, such as that of Rita Margolis, a granddaughter of Holocaust survivors who was deemed “Jewish enough” to immigrate to Israel and to serve in the military, but not enough to legally marry in Israel, arouse intense outrage among secular Israelis. Lapid’s Yesh Atid Party has taken on the cause of instituting civil marriage, but numerous attempts to do so have been made in the past by various secular movements and political parties; other groups fight for non-Orthodox conversions to be recognized as well. Yet, to date all such efforts have been blocked by religious parties, perpetuating the rift between the secular and the Haredi. For decades, both socio-economic issues and such religious-secular divides have been swept under the carpet, while the Israeli-Arab conflict—what Israelis call “defense and foreign affairs”—has taken center stage. However, in recent years the focus of the national public debate has shifted: although security remains important, most Israelis see little hope for a breakthrough any time soon and hence are no longer willing to postpone the socio-economic agenda.

YeshAtid_Shas_UTJ

However, in my opinion, the status quo in the relationship between the secular and the Haredi is likely to continue, due mainly to the need for forming complex coalitions in the Knesset. The two religious parties in the newly elected Knesset—Shas and United Torah Judaism (UTJ)—are yet again well-positioned with their total of 18 seats (Shas has eleven seats and UTJ has seven) to serve their respective constituencies’ financial and ideological interests by joining in the governing coalition or supporting it in crucial parliamentary votes. Such political maneuvering also allows the religious parties to obtain funds to benefit the Haredi communities they represent. Shas in particular is known for its willingness to participate in left-wing governments and to compromise on both religious and economic issues, earning it the moniker of “the unchallenged kingmaker of Israeli politics”. The two religious parties cater to the needs of two different demographic constituencies: Shas mostly represents the Sephardic and Mizrahi (or Middle-Eastern Jewish) communities, whereas UTJ represents the Ashkenazi Haredi Jews (including the Hassidim). Though Shas is often characterized as an ultra-orthodox party, the majority of Shas voters are rather Modern Orthodox or “traditional” Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews.

Predictably, there is a certain complementarity between the areas that voted for Yesh Atid and those that voted for the two religious parties. The latter regions include the Ashkelon sub-district in the south, and the Kinneret sub-district in the north, which strongly supported Shas, as well as Judea and Samaria (West Bank) District, which voted very heavily for UTJ. The Jerusalem District gave an equal share of its votes to the two religious parties. This geographical pattern is not new. For example, Shas has consistently gained strongest support in the Ashkelon sub-district (14% in 2003, 16% in 2006, 13% in 2009), the Jerusalem District (13% in 2003, 15% in 2006 and 2009), and the Kinneret sub-district (11 % in 2003, 12% in 2006, 10% in 2009). In some elections, it also performed well in other areas, in particular in Judea and in Ramla, but has not managed to gain much support in those districts in the latest election. Similarly, UTJ gained 19% of the vote in Jerusalem and 10% in Judea in 2009. (The only other area where it performed well in earlier elections, Dan North, includes the rather affluent secular city of Herzliya; this pattern remains a mystery to me.)

JewishHome_UTJ

An examination of the voting patterns for UTJ and the hawkish Jewish Home Party, headed by a high-tech entrepreneur Naftali Bennett, reveals another important point: while many people tend to conflate the “religious” and “Zionist” categories, the overlap is only partial, and there are important distinctions to be drawn as well. Some members of the Haredi community are not Zionist and a few, such as Neturei Karta, are avowedly anti-Zionist. On the other hand, many settlers in Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and the Golan Heights are not members of the Haredi community, but are rather Orthodox (but not Haredi) or Conservative in their religious affiliation. The voting maps reflect such differences: while residents of Judea and Samaria divided their votes between UTJ and Jewish Home, the Jerusalem District voted mostly for UTJ but much less so for Jewish Home, whereas the Golan Heights gave the vote to Jewish Home and not to UTJ.

JewishHome_LikudBeiteinu

In the run-up to the elections, Naftali Bennett campaigned to present Jewish Home as an inclusive right-wing party, not just a settlers’ party, but those efforts appear to have failed. As the electoral maps indicate, the voting base of Jewish Home is geographically complementary to that of the Likud-Beitenu block, another right-wing political party. The latter received only around 20% vote in Judea and Samaria or the Golan Heights, the areas that voted most heavily for the Jewish Home. Conversely, in the Ashkelon sub-district, where Likud-Beitenu is especially popular, Jewish Home received only about 10% of the vote, compared to Judea and Samaria or the Golan Heights, where it got 24%. The image of Jewish Home as the settlers’ party is further enhanced by the inclusion of people such as Orit Struk on the party list. Struk, a 52-year-old mother of 11 and grandmother of 12, lives in one of the most ideological communities in the West Bank, that of Hebron. She is also the founder and chairwoman of Human Rights in Yesha, an organization that advocates for settlers’ rights. In this role, she has fought against alleged abuse of settlers by soldiers and policemen, and advocated for those who protested Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. She also runs the Land of Israel lobby in the Knesset that fights for settlement expansion and legalizing outposts.

Arab_parties

The opposing end of the political spectrum is shared by three Arab-supported parties: United Arab List-Ta’al, Hadash, and Balad. Predictably, all three parties did well in Akko, Yizre’el, and Hadera sub-districts, where a large proportion of the population is Arab or Druze. They also did well in the same areas in previous elections: for example, in 2009 United Arab List received 14% in Akko, 11% in Hadera, and 10% in Yizre’el; Hadash won 16% in Akko, 10% in Hadera, and 15% in Yizre’el; and Balad came up with 13% in Akko, and 11% in Hadera and in Yizre’el. Though all three parties position themselves as champions of the Arab interests, the finer differences between them are instructive as well. United Arab List, which can be described as an Islamist party, has received little support from Arab Christians. It is particularly popular among the Bedouin in the Negev (Beersheva sub-district): in the 2009 elections, 80% of the Bedouin voted for this party, while only 5% voted for Hadash and merely 2% for Balad. (Curiously, many of the Bedouin voted for Shas, more than for any other Jewish party, and in some cases more than for any Arab party.) Furthermore, United Arab List-Ta’al is more popular in smaller settlements and less popular in cities, which give more than half of their votes to the Marxist-socialist Hadash Party. Interestingly, this is true both in Umm al-Fahm, where virtually the entire population is Muslim, and in Nazareth, where approximately a third of the residents are Christians. The Balad Party, whose ideology is Pan-Arabism and secularism, received 20-25% of the vote in Arab areas, regardless of the degree of urbanization.

LeftWing_Parties

Israel’s Labor Party was once considered the quintessential Zionist party and was therefore immensely powerful, but in recent decades it has lost popularity. Contributing to Labor’s decline  is the growing Sephardi population, as well as to the influx of immigrants from the former Soviet Union, who largely vote for other parties. The party’s association with the Oslo Accords has also discredited it in the eyes of many Israelis. In 2013, Labor won only 15 seats, receiving strongest support in the north, especially in the Safed, Kinneret, and Golan sub-districts, as well as in Haifa, Tel-Aviv, Petakh-Tikva, and Rehovot sub-districts. Once again, this pattern is not new: for example, this party received over 15% in all of those areas in the 2003 elections. Much of the support for the Labor Party comes from residents in Israel’s kibbutzim: in 2009, nearly a third of them voted for the Labor Party, another third voting for Kadima. In the most recent election, Kadima suffered a major blow, dropping down to a mere two seats, due mostly to the split of Tsipi Livni’s Hatnuah Party, which received six seats. Both Kadima and Hatnuah received the bulk of their votes in the north. Last but not least, Meretz received most of its votes in the Tel-Aviv district, though the geographical distribution of its constituency is far less pronounced than that of other parties.

Finally, an electoral “tale of two cities” merits discussion. Jerusalem, described by many sources as increasingly religious in character, due to high birth rate among the Haredi and the fact that many secular Jews are leaving the city in search of cheaper housing and a more permissive lifestyle, gave 38% of its vote to the two religious parties (UTJ and Shas), and another 12% to the Jewish Home. Yesh Atid received only 7% of the Jerusalemites’ votes, half the national average. In contrast, the mostly secular Tel Aviv-Yafo residents gave a fifth of their votes to Yesh Atid, and nearly a third of their votes to the two large left-wing parties: Labor and Meretz.

 

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  • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

    I am not an Israeli citizen, but if I could vote in an Israeli election, I would vote for the Labor Party.

    • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

      That’s interesting, Tim. May I ask why?

      • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

        I have been fervently involved with Israeli-Palestinian peace. I have spent a great deal of time in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. The people living there are tired of the sectarian conflict. I have been involved with Bereaved Families, who are both Israelis and Palestinians who have lost relatives to the other side in the sectarian conflict. The Labor Party seems like the best party in Israel, who wants to tackled this and take it on. To try to create the formidable, which is a two-state solution.

        • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

          Oh nobody wants to continue the conflict. I’m just wondering why you think that Labor is the best party to tackle it…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Because the ruling Likud Party, has done nothing but just expand settlements on the West Bank. Israel will have to make a decision about the settlements. Either return the settlers back to the pre-1967 borders, or let them stay and become citizens of Palestine. There will never be a Jewish majority in the West Bank, and President Shimon Peres has warned about this.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            “the ruling Likud Party, has done nothing but just expand settlements on the West Bank”—while I don’t fully agree with this statement, here’s a question: what did the Labor Party do? Other than Oslo Accords, which very few in Israel see as any success? While in the early days Labor was an inspiring party, no doubt, it seems to have been reduced to a lack of personalities (with all due respect to Shimon Peres!) and lack of ideas in the last two decades or so…

            As for the question of returning settlers to within pre-1967 borders, why is it that it is acceptable to have Palestine as a Jew-free country? Can you see three political parties representing Jewish settlers in Palestinian parliament? Isn’t this sort of double standards the crux of the problem?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Eliyahu-Ben-Abraham/1534644655 Eliyahu Ben Abraham

            Tim, there were no pre-1967 borders, only armistice lines. Even Prez Obama recognizes that. Most Israelis do not agree with you that parts of the ancient Jewish homeland should be Judenrein. That is racism and an apartheid policy against Jews. In fact, the whole country, including Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip were recognized as parts of the Jewish National Home by the League of Nations in 1922. Jews would have been much more numerous in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza Strip if the British had not violated their mandate by excluding Jews from those areas by the Land Purchase regulations of 1940, which was pursuant to the 1939 British White Paper which excluded Jewish refugees from immigrating to the Jewish National Home when the Jews most needed a home. So the British were in fact silent partners in the Holocaust and the Palestinian Arabs openly collaborated in the Holocaust by the activities of Haj Amin el-Husseini, the foremost Arab Nazi collaborator.

            Moreover, a retreat to the pre-1967 [1949] armistice lines would make the remainder of Israel more vulnerable to conventional military attack and would thus tempt the Arabs to make war on the remainder of Israel. Obama’s policy is not a peace policy.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            In the Hebron Massacre of 1929, 19 Arab families took in and hid 435 Jews. Jews were welcomed back in 1931, by the Arab Hebron Chamber of Commerce. They remain there until the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Haj Amin el-Husseini was a Nazi collaborator, but so were the Finns. Do will still have present-day bad feelings towards the Finns for that? But we obviously do for the Palestinians. If we can disregard the pro-Nazi activities of the Finns and Italians. Then we should be able for the Palestinians.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            The Hebron Massacre of 1929. Let’s pause. A mass massacre of Jews by Arabs. Enough said.

            “Haj Amin el-Husseini was a Nazi collaborator, but so were the Finns. Do
            will still have present-day bad feelings towards the Finns for that?”—Don’t know about the Finns, but when it comes to Germans themselves, the overwhelming sentiment, I think, is that those who were involved in the Holocaust have not been absolved… May I recommend “Walk on Water”, an excellent film on the subject?
            http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0352994/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

            “If we can disregard the pro-Nazi activities of the Finns and Italians. Then we should be able for the Palestinians.”—As far as I know, Finns and Italians do not murder Jews just for being Jewish, don’t blow up busses, cafes, discos, etc. More importantly, whatever individual Finns, Italians or Palestinians may think about the Jews, Finnish and Italian governments do not perpetuate hateful lies and encourage murder. Here’s more on the history of this issue:
            http://www.amazon.com/History-Upside-Down-Palestinian-Aggression/dp/1594031924

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Despite joining the Germans in their invasion of the Soviet Union in 1942, Finland did not allow their Jewish population to be deported. Great Britain was the only ally to declare war on Finland in 1942. Italy very much allowed their Jewish population to be deported, even though Mussolini was ousted by the Fascists in 1943. In 1993, the Palestine LIberation Organization recognized the State of Israel. The Palestinian Authority has been in negotiations with Israel, but Hamas is a separate political wing that still advocates violence against Israel. A Palestinian is not just a Palestinian. Just like the Axis Powers, were not just the Axis Powers. The United States never bombed Finland, and went into Italy to oust out the Germans in control of the country. Also in the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the Arabs killed 67 Jews, but saved 435. So evil cannot be just defined in blanket terms.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            ” Italy very much allowed their Jewish population to be deported, even though Mussolini was ousted by the Fascists in 1943.”— not “even though”, but because.

            Also 435 Jews needed to be saved because Arabs were killing them in the first place!

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Arabs killed them, but were also saving them. It is like the Lithuanian Iron Wolf was helping the Nazis round up Jews, but there were also Lithuanian citizens that were hiding Jews. Let us not glamorize Europeans, and demonize Arabs. Because bigotry will just deflect away from peace.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            The difference: today’s Lithuanian (Finnish, Italian, etc.) governments (or major political parties) do not call for (or subsidize) mass murder of Jews.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Ultra-nationalists parties are rising in Hungary, Romania, Greece, and Ukraine. They are not the ruling parties yet, but very Anti-Semitic. Even Hamas Charter, will do a great deal of name calling, but it is not calling for the mass murder of Jews. I am not fearful that Hamas will come and murder me. But Jews are leaving Hungary, because of a difficult lifestyle there. You are Arab-stereotyping again.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            I am not stereotyping, just remembering those who were murdered by the Hamas and their supporters. As for the anti-Semitic ultra-nationalists in other countries, sadly you are right there. We’ve written on this on GeoCurrents:

            http://geocurrents.info/place/europe/hungarys-rising-hyper-nationalist-jobbik-party-and-the-legacy-of-anti-semitism-and-anti-gypsyism

            http://geocurrents.info/geonotes/mapping-german-anti-semitism

            http://geocurrents.info/place/russia-ukraine-and-caucasus/euro-2012-soccer-championship-stirs-up-the-ghost-of-anti-semitism

            But so far this is mostly talk, not blowing up buses and such like.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            If you have not read yet Hannah Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” I hight recommend it. Because it explains that Anti-Semitism is not just random behavior, but has a political structure to it. You will see that more with the European ultra-nationalistic parties, than with Hamas. The weakness of Hamas’ Anti-Semitism is that it lacks a political structure. It more resembles mob behavior. Greece’s Golden Dawn Party has more fearful verbiage in it, than Hamas Doctrine. Also, get on the website of Hannah Rosenthal, the President’s Envoy on Combatting Anti-Semitic. Because she knew how to confront Saudi Arabia’s Ministry of Education on Anti-Semitism in their curriculum.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            I prefer to look at deeds rather than verbiage: bombings and rockets speak louder than the dishonest speeches…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            If we look at deeds, then there was the recent rocket firings into Israel. They stopped, but Khaled Meshaal made a point, when he said Gazan farmers need to go out into their fields close to the Israeli border, and Gaza fishermen need to go out further into sea, to make more catches. Not Gazans firing rockets into Israel, or performing terrorist acts, but doing something economically to survive. If Israeli-Palestinian peace is to materialize, then all Palestinian political factions need to be included, it just cannot be Mahmoud Abbas. So will Tzipi Livni be able to have a meeting with both Abbas and Meshaal? Will John Kerry will able to help? Right now those questions are unanswered. But that does not mean they cannot be answered.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            I am all for the Palestinians “doing something economically to survive”, but this is just a call that comes after the rocket fire. I am not saying that Mahmoud Abbas is much “nicer” than Meshaal—you know the topic of his doctoral dissertation, I take it? It is particularly interesting where he did it…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            The Arabs do not murder Jews because they are Jews. If that were the case, then all of the Jews now living in places such as Yemen and Morocco would be dead. It is modern politics. Arabs have never tried to kill me, in fact I have been in a great deal of ecumenical dialogues with Muslims. Just do not rely on what the media tells you, because does it talk about ecumenical dialogue between Arab/Muslims and Jews. No, they want a story. So violence will be the story. I one time tried to get the media to do a story about a joint Muslim-Jewish picnic I was involved in. They told me they were not interested, because it was not a story that interested them. If i had spent more time, I probable would have found a media that would cover it. It was the Nazis that killed Jews because they were Jews. Are you getting your information off the website of the Jewish Defense League? Because there are Jewish extremist websites out there.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            I got plenty of information from my own eyes. I lived in Jerusalem for seven years. I’ve seen buses blown up. I’ve lost people in these attacks. What sort of places you get your information from, I don’t know. If this is just the extremist fringe there’s far too many of them.

          • TimUpham

            I was in Israel in 2006, when the country was just rocked by suicide bombings. That has stopped. I talked about this subject with a Palestinian Christian minister. He told me “a suicide bomber is not born, they are created.” I later found out that there were a high number of Palestinians with advanced degrees, who were not in occupations equal to there education levels. Capital is very slight for Palestinians to start there own businesses. But I was able to forward them over to the Grameen Bank and Mercy Corps, for capital to start their own businesses. When I checked back on them, their businesses were viable and thriving. Sectarian conflict has to be addressed by the two side involved in it. You can feel the personal pain of losing people that you know. But the death rate in the sectarian conflict is 6 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli. To me, all deaths are bad. But it cannot simply be clouded because Jewish is in my background. But because of that, I have had Jewish extremists just say horrible things to me, they have called me an Anti-Semitic Muslim Nazi. But the answer is not make Jews victims, and the Palestinians cold blooded killers. They both have to be human beings.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Indeed, suicide bombers are created. By the Hamas, by the anti-Semitic propaganda, and by western parties (people, organizations, etc.) who allow such things to continue. As for the issue of employment, the situation doesn’t seem any better for Palestinians in Jordan either, and whose fault is that? In any case, it is for the Palestinian government to sort out these problems, but they seem more interested in creating suicide bombers, persecuting those who would rather collaborate with Israel etc.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            The Israeli and Palestinian economies are very closely linked. Together they do over U.S. $6 billion dollars worth of business with each other. If the Palestinian economy were to collapse, it would pull Israel down along with it. Israel would not be able to decouple from it. The future potential of joint Israeli-Palestinan business ventures is absolutely enormous. But there has to be peace to developed them. Its not that the Palestinians do care if their people are employed or not. No one becomes a professional suicide bomber. But somebody has to have a future, to not want to commit suicide. People always send me on-line the Hamas Doctrine, and say “read it.” I have read it so many times. But what they are doing in Gaza now is expanding the teaching of Hebrew in Gaza schools. Not to tell an Israeli you are dead, but it seems as though Hamas is looking into the future, when Israelis will be their customers. Gazan farmers were at the Eshkol Agricultural Expo, to learn the latest about farming techniques and marketing. So we have some type of business exchange between Gaza and israel. Now it needs to be expanded. Remember Germany was in political and economic alliances with Great Britain and France 7 years after World War II. So we cannot say it is different with the Palestinians simply because they want to kill Jews. For extremists will use that.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            “Gazan farmers were at the Eshkol Agricultural Exp
            o, to le
            arn the latest about farming techniques and marketing.”—that’s after destroying all the greenhouses that Israelis left for them for free after withdrawal…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            I do not have information on greenhouses being destroyed. Were they destroyed because they were “Zionist” greenhouses, or was it because the Gazan farmers could not use them? Any farmer wants to make as much money as they can. I do not think the hatred towards the Israelis would be so great, as to destroy something that could make money. Is it because when the Israelis withdrew they took the temperature regulators with them? If so, then the Gazans could just get them from Egypt.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            This was all over the news at the time. Here’s just one link. I think it answers the questions you asked above. And as you point out, even if for whatever reason these greenhouses were not fully functional at the time of the withdrawal (as any abandoned facility would be), it would have been easier to fix it before they were ransacked… So yes, sometimes the hatred is stronger than the desire for profit (as any burned-land policy proves so easily).

            http://www.haaretz.com/news/palestinian-militants-ransack-former-gush-katif-greenhouses-1.179788

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Obviously, the Palestinian Constitution would have to be amended, while Israel has never had a constitution. India has two sets of civil codes: one for Hindus and the other for Muslims. Israel has accepted the fact that it has an Arab minority, so Palestine would have to accept the fact that is has a Jewish minority. Because that is the given for that region of the world. Israel will only be a Jewish state, because it has a Jewish majority, and Palestine will only be an Arab state, just because it has an Arab minority. We must return back to the 1947 United Nations partition. Mahmoud Abbas said it was a mistake, not to accept it. It is never too late to go back and correct mistakes.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            “Obviously, the Palestinian Constitution would have to be amended”—and when do you expect that will happen?

            “We must return back to the 1947 United Nations partition. Mahmoud Abbas
            said it was a mistake, not to accept it. It is never too late to go
            back and correct mistakes.”—I’m afraid I disagree. There’s no “do over” in history. The events of the intervening time cannot be ignored. One can move forward from the present position, but not “go back”. But to return to the earlier question I raised, what has the Labor party proposed that works (or has worked) to bring lasting peace?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            The Palestinian Constitution does not pertain to a nation-state, only to a political entity. The Labor Party, and other political parties within Israel, propose a two-state solution. But we do not know yet, if that will include land swaps. The catalyst for a Palestinian state would be what we know as the borders which define the West Bank and Gaza.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Palestinian constitution pertains to a political entity headed by Hamas, whose charter calls for destruction of Israel.

            But my question wasn’t so much about Labor party as opposed to, say, Jewish Home, but why not any other left wing party. I’m genuinely curious.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Hamas Charter is not a part of the Palestinian Constitution. It is just a charter for a political organization. It is like saying the charter of the Boy Scouts is the U.S. Constitution.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Not really: Boy Scouts are not the main political party in the U.S. If say Republican or Democratic Party charter said that it’s goal is destruction of Canada, wouldn’t the Canadians have a good reason to be worried?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Hamas was the winning party, that eventually got exiled to Gaza. It shows how much the Palestinians are a disunited people. Also, Hamas recognizes the pre-1967 borders. So they will have to eventually say the border with who. The Hamas toughness will be dropped in the future. So we all need to watch what we say. But what really gets me about Hamas is how factual inaccurate their charter is on Islamic history, and their paranoid and xenophobic economic policies that have devastated the economy of Gaza.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            ” The Hamas toughness will be dropped in the future.” — I wish I shared your optimism.

            More generally, I agree that Hamas has not been good for the Palestinians themselves. Can’t see how it can be good for Israelis…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Israeli-Palestinian peace requires perseverance. We saw Yitzhak Rabin shake hands with Yasser Arafat. Both are dead now. There must be new figures that will be shaking hands, and having that hand shake transpire into permanent peace. Turkey wants to end its decades old conflict with its Kurdish minority. The Turkish Government-Kurdistan Workers’ Party negotiations are just as touchy as the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Will Turkey legalize the use of the Kurdish language in media and education?

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Unfortunately, no hand shake has transpired into permanent peace…

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Anwar Sadat’s hand shake has never been rescinded. Not even by the Muslim Brotherhood, which assassinated him.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            It depends how you interpret certain events.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            I do not interpret in mass hysteria, that the Arabs say “the only good Jew, is a dead Jew.” Jewish extremists will use that more than Muslim extremists. Mohammed Morsi has been challenged within his own party, to be belligerent towards Israel, but he has kept the 1979 peace accords with Israel. As Yasser Arafat said “Extremism exists on both sides.” For Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            your comparison is flawed. This was a political murder, not a terrorist attack against innocent people, including children and babies.

          • TimUpham

            When Anwar Sadat was assassinated that was a terrorist attack. Which babies are you talking about? Israeli or Palestinian. I have seen bodies pulled out from underneath rubble in Israel and in Gaza. So pulling out a dead Palestinian body, is to make me cold and unfeeling. While an Israeli body is to make me break down and cry. I cannot justify either, except that a death is a death, and none of them is right.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            What exactly are you saying?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            What I am saying is that I am involved with stopping the sectarian violence that is killing both Israelis and Palestinians. I have seen the victims, and I have worked with their survivors. To me both Israelis and Palestinians are human beings. I cannot dehumanize a Palestinian, just because I had a Jewish mother. A spade is a spade, if I dehumanize the Palestinians, and victimized the Jews, I would just be a fascist.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            You like to treat all Palestinians or all Jews or all Israelis under the same heading, no? what is you take a suicide bomber and his innocent victims and draw a moral equivalency between the two—what does that make you?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Can I say that every Palestinian I have met is a terrorist, who wants to kill a Jew? Many Palestinians are working with Jews on behalf of peace and coexistence. Would it be appropriate to say these people “You hate Jews, and want to kill them!” It is like race relations in the United States, the Nation of Islam for awhile advocated the killing of all whites. But Martin Luther King, Jr. did not advocate the killings of whites, He advocated the coexistence with whites.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            You’ve not answered my question above, and in general you seem to jump from topic to topic (or should I say from off-topic to another off-topic) and that makes the discussion rather uninteresting, as far as I am concerned. So I am going to wrap it up.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            The Labor Party won a substantial number of seats in the Knesset. But the Hatnuah Party will be in a coalition with the Likud Party, with Tzipi Livni as Minister of Justice, and as chief negotiator for Israeli-Palestinian issues. I do not think Mahmoud Abbas is going to kill her, but it will be interesting to see if the non-direct negotiations between Israel and Hamas in Cairo, turn into direct negotiations. That is the reason why we just cannot hang onto “the Palestinians want to kill every Jew.” Because it is not factually correct. Even the Jewish Home Party does get that extreme.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Tsipi Livni would have been in coalition with the Labor party too, had they won the election. Negotiations, both direct and indirect, have been going on for decades… what of it?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Golda Meir was involved in secret negotiations with King Abdullah of Jordan, which what led to his assassination. Jordan and israel have diplomatic relations now. In fact, Israeli companies in Jordan are employing 1,200 Jordanians. Hamas and Israel are just now starting to communicate with each other in Cairo. It is not unthinkable to see that turn into direct communications. For a long time, Israel had a bounty on Yasser Arafat’s head.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Jordanians had a much different attitude than Hamas does.

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Not in 1967, did they. In 1967, King Hussein’s speeches sounded just like Hamas. Then King Hussein’s was at Yitzhak Rabin’s funeral, wiping tears out of his eyes, referring to Rabin as his “brother.” It is just that you are thinking that Khaled Meshaal was expelled when he lived in Jordan, and in 1970 Jordan expelled the Palestine LIberation Organization.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            You expect the Hamas to have the same change of heart?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            Sooner or later Hamas will have to accept the State of Israel, because it is not going anywhere. That is the reason why King Hussein accepted Israel. Despite all the past cries for it destruction, after 64 years it has not been destroyed. But many Jewish extremists will claim that there be another Holocaust. Remember when the United States and Soviet Union were going to blow each other of the map. Did it happen? I lot a people in the 1980′s sure thought it would.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            In the 1980s it was foolish to think that the Soviet union could have blown anyone off the map. But apparently during the Cuban missile crisis, things did close.

          • TimUpham

            What led to Khrushchev to withdrawal those missiles from Cuba, was that he was a veteran of World War II in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had the highest civilian death rate of any other country during World War II. Villages that supported the partisans were completely wiped out. Khrushchev as traumatized by war.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            You’ve accused me earlier of getting my information from inadequate sources, but now I have to wonder where you get yours, Tim. “Khrushchev as traumatized by war”?! PLEASE! He was among those who are ultimately responsible for the fact that the Soviet Union had the highest casualty rates during WWII. And it was on his watch that T-34 tanks were sent to suppress the unarmed uprising at Kengir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kengir_uprising#Suppression). So how traumatized was he? If he wasn’t traumatized enough so as to not send tanks against unarmed and starved people of his own country, do you think he’d give a damn about Americans or Cubans or whoever ten years later?

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            I think you are dehumanizing Khrushchev a little bit too much. If he was that cold and heartless, he would have kept Joseph Stalin the icon he was after his death. But the Soviet Union wanted to erase the memory of Stalin, despite he was the leader during the Nazi invasion. But the Soviets could not forget his purges from 1936 to 1939, all the Soviet leaders who opposed him executed, and his Doctors Plot from 1952 to 1953. If Khrushchev was not traumatized by World War II, then he had to be from the Great Purge, which left the Soviet Union so weak to stand up against Operation Barbarossa. Sometimes it is hard to classify the lesser of two evils. Which also applies to the Palestinians, but I think as a historian you have to try to justify that all the time.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            Oh I don’t need to dehumanize Khruschev, as he’s done that himself to himself. His move to make a monster out of Stalin was well calculated as it allowed all the blame to be placed at Stalin’s feet and Stalin was dead by then. But Khruschev was guilty of the active participation in the purges. Even the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khruschev), which is rather mild-mannered, states that he “supported Joseph Stalin’s purges, and approved thousands of arrests”. After Stalin’s death, he didn’t replace him immediately as there were others closer “to the throne”, so to speak, but Khruschev ruthlessly got rid of them—this is well-documented. There are even suspicions that he was involved in Stalin’s death, though this is far from being proven.

            Nor is it true that the people of the Soviet Union “wanted to erase the memory of Stalin”. At that point, most people believed Stalin was like God. When he died, people were crashed to death at the memorial ceremony, so many people wanted to see “The Leader”! Khruschev’s speech was received with rather a lot of negative feeling from the people.

            Do to say that Khruschev was traumatized from WWII or the purges is absolutely disingenuous and makes the perpetrator into a victim!

          • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

            But they changed the name from Stalingrad to Volgograd, and Stalin’s corpse was removed from Lenin’s tomb. So his esteem was lowered, before that of Lenin’s. Apparently, it has been an ongoing debate about whether to remove Lenin’s body and bury it.

          • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

            The toponym change was somewhat later and has been a subject for continuing debate with many people wanting the city’s name changed back. I’ve written more on this here: http://geocurrents.info/geonotes/anachronistic-toponyms-and-name-changes-where-am-i-from

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Rosa/1593565364 Peter Rosa

    There’s pretty much the opposite situation in the United States: tell me who you are, and I’ll tell you who you vote for. Sometimes these links are obvious. If you’re black, you almost certainly vote Democratic, while if you’re a Mormon or a fundamentalist Christian you almost certainly vote Republican. Others are more subtle, for instance single white women are predominately Democratic while married white women are mostly Republican. And then of course there are the geographical effects – you won’t see many Democrats in rural Kansas, or Republicans on the Upper West Side.

    • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

      This is an excellent point. After I wrote the post, I’ve thought that in the US too it’s more about demography than ideology…

  • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

    I have seen the motion picture “Walk On Water,” and the sexuality of the Israeli Mossad agent was a surprise at the end. Was he bisexual? Because it is typical now to see college-age men hug each other. When in the past we would have questions their sexual orientation. So has our outlook towards same sex relations changed the way individuals of the same sex treat each other, regardless of sexual orientation? Two men can now hug each other, be physically close without it being it being sexual gratifying. Because homosexual refers to someone being sexual gratified by the same sex.

    • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

      Glad you saw it. Though the homosexuality wasn’t why I brought it up. The director of this film is openly gay and he apparently includes the homosexuality theme in all his films, or many of them anyway. It did seem rather peripheral to me, as far as this film goes, but I can see why others may disagree.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

    My objectives is not to point out that you are wrong, but the Israeli-Palestinian issues will always be addressed, by making victims, and a contest into who is more victimized. That has to be thrown out the window. Because when they have negotiations, they will not be discussing the past, but the present. For that present will be who lives where, and what governing body represents them. The dead on both sides have been buried, and like what I mentioned in the intifadas it is always 6 Palestinians to 1 Israeli. But the discussion should be on the future, and how goals can materialize into reality. If we go back to the Fogel family, then we are just rehashing the past, and we cannot negate the past.

    • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

      I agree that discussing who’s the bigger victim is rather not constructive. But along those same lines, I don’t like the mention of the 6:1 (or whatever) ratio. It’s meant to blame Israel, whereas it’s really the Palestinian government’s fault (and the Hamas in particular). Mentioning it in this fashion is rather dishonest, I would say, same as saying that the Soviets lost more in casualties (military or civilian) than any other country during WWII so it traumatized Khruschev (or Stalin even, I’ve heard that argument too). The argument is dishonest because they do not try to minimize casualties—Palestinians and Soviets are quite alike in this respect—and in some cases even try to maximize them and to use the high numbers for their own purposes (just to be clear, the government is maximizing the casualties among the people, because they don’t really care about the people).

      As for the issue of negotiations, I don’t think they should be about who lives where but about how the safety of people on both sides will be insured. The problem is that it’s harder to have that sort of negotiations for Palestinians as their government doesn’t completely control the situation due to decades of propaganda. So it is preferable for them to steer the discussion into the matter of settlements etc.—but Israel never proposes that Arabs who live in Israel would need to move out. In fact, many of those Israeli Arabs wouldn’t want to move to PA, especially the Christian Arabs.

      • http://www.facebook.com/tim.upham.7 Tim Upham

        The Kach Party advocated the expulsion of Arabs, until it was banned. As for Palestinians and Soviets being in the same mold. That is the reason why Mahmoud Abbas got his Ph.D. at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow. That university does not even exists anymore, and I am sure the curriculum is different now in Russia, than when it was in the Soviet Union.

        • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

          Actually, you don’t seem to know what you are talking about: Patrice Lumumba University still exists, though it got a slightly different label, as many things did when Soviet Union fell apart. As for the curriculum, that too is largely carried over since the Soviet days, and more generally it is remarkable to what degree the programs of various higher education institutions have not changed (where the labels may have changed a lot more).

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba_University#PFUR_today

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Saim-Dušan-Inayatullah/100000494491873 Saim Dušan Inayatullah

    Arabs and Druze? Are Druze not Arabs? Or are we going to start talking about “Jews and Sephardim”?

    • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

      Not my usage. Druze may be related to Arabs but they are distinctive socially, politically etc. and are treated as a separate group in Israel.

  • Merlin

    Posted something a few minutes ago and it didn’t show up…this is a test, if it shows up I will re-post the original.

    • Merlin

      &^*($$#@^!! The test post showed up but neither of the real posts did. I’ll e-mail Asya and see if she can figure out what’s going on.

      • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

        testing, testing…

  • http://www.pereltsvaig.com Asya Pereltsvaig

    A comment from our reader and former student Merlin Dorfman (thanks, Merlin!):

    An interesting article on Israeli political party names and how they are rendered in English: http://forward.com/articles/172003/why-israel-is-a-world-leader-in-catchy-political-p/?p=all